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[6:56] Mark Cabaret is Online

[6:57] Martin Pattle is Offline

[6:58] Martin Pattle is Online

[6:58] Mark Cabaret: 2 if we can have large multiperson interactions

[6:58] Voxypat Olmstead: can u create lanes that are slightly out of sync?

[6:58] Mark Cabaret: 3 I just learnt chat isn’t a good tool for long distance communications

[6:58] Mark Cabaret: 4 I learnt you need at least 2 refs for a game

[6:59] Mark Cabaret: 5 I think games are fun to bring people into a space?

[6:59] Woop Superior: well the environment isn’t designed for large multi-user ineractions, that is for certain, we could mail the SLED list to see if anyone else has done such a thing though

[6:59] Mark Cabaret: other thoughts?

[6:59] Mark Cabaret: do we want to play again with the bridges?

[6:59] Martin Pattle: The large areas are clubs, wich often have loads of dancers

[6:59] Mark Cabaret: or somebody else want to take over and do something different?

[6:59] Martin Pattle: Dance balls seem to have limits of 50

[6:59] Voxypat Olmstead: try lengthneing one of the sides on some of the bridges to create bridges of slightly different slopes and angles

[7:00] Woop Superior: spot the amateur builder, two prim angled bridges ;-p

[7:00] Martin Pattle: RP Attacek games seem to work but probably only 20 active

[7:00] Mark Cabaret: I like that I can now shout "BRIDGE" or "RUN"

[7:00] Mark Cabaret: two modes of moving across the space

[7:00] Martin Pattle: The environemnt here is very simple

[7:01] Martin Pattle: Clubs often have particle emitters and light shows

[7:01] Schomer Simpson: I’ve set up one of them so that anyone can take/copy/edit but which one?

[7:01] Woop Superior: particles are entirely executed client side though, they don’t load the server

[7:01] Martin Pattle: OK

[7:01] Mark Cabaret: so, another go at the game with the bridges or something different?

[7:01] Mark Cabaret: Schomer - you are thebosss....

[7:02] Schomer Simpson: Don’t mind - we could go on a tour - Dan could show you the building platform

[7:02] Schomer Simpson: I want to get views on my path plan (and indeed other plans)

[7:02] Schomer Simpson: We could try out the discusssion circel

[7:02] Schomer Simpson: And then there’s the eduserve bid

[7:02] Woop Superior: ok, let’s go

[7:02] Martin Pattle: I facny a tour, thnk we need more people here for games testing

[7:02] Mark Cabaret: ok shall we do that, lead on

[7:02] Schomer Simpson: Dan - do you want to lead the way - starting with building platform?

[7:03] Schomer Simpson: hmm where is dan?

[7:03] Mark Cabaret: can we stick to in SL nmes please

[7:03] Schomer Simpson: OK

[7:03] Mark Cabaret: I get confused can’t remembver both

[7:03] Schomer Simpson: Where’s woop?

[7:03] Martin Pattle: He crashed out at least once

[7:03] Mark Cabaret: somebody’s on the small islands

[7:03] Martin Pattle: I crashed once already

[7:03] You: he’s still online - has he headed off already?

[7:03] Mark Cabaret: did u crash in the game Martin>

[7:04] Martin Pattle: My client on a Mac crasged

[7:04] Mark Cabaret: ah

[7:04] Schomer Simpson: Up up an away

[7:04] Schomer Simpson: SE corner at about 150 meter

[7:04] Mark Cabaret: who am I following

[7:04] Martin Pattle: I was folowing you!

[7:08] You: been busy!

[7:08] Martin Pattle: We should open a group IM

[7:09] Elsa Dickins: where’s everyone else gone?

[7:09] Voxypat Olmstead: Amazing

[7:09] Voxypat Olmstead: Who built all this?

[7:09] Schomer Simpson: Well this is the building/development area

[7:09] Woop Superior is Offline

[7:10] Schomer Simpson: Woop created it

[7:10] Voxypat Olmstead: Home produced then?

[7:10] Faji Tulip: can we have walls

[7:10] Schomer Simpson: Yes home grown

[7:10] Schomer Simpson: Why do you want walls?

[7:10] Faji Tulip: my cannnon balls will roll off the edge

[7:10] Schomer Simpson: Dan has put some interactive displays over there

[7:10] Schomer Simpson: Ah - so walls do have a function

[7:10] Voxypat Olmstead: I would like to learn more about crating interactive displays

[7:11] Schomer Simpson: Over here is the interactive plan of the island

[7:11] You: There are some good tools in the ICT library on InfoIsland

[7:11] You: free for educators to copy

[7:12] Woop Superior is Online

[7:12] Voxypat Olmstead: no movement

[7:12] Mark Cabaret: oh I got three requests, cheers guys

[7:12] Elsa Dickins: requests?

[7:12] Mark Cabaret: I looked around and couldn’t see you at all

[7:12] Mark Cabaret: tp offers

[7:12] Elsa Dickins: oh IMs

[7:12] Elsa Dickins: tps even

[7:12] Schomer Simpson: This platform is at about 300 m

[7:13] Elsa Dickins: sorry, keep up Elsa

[7:13] Mark Cabaret: I just pressed page up when flying

[7:13] Schomer Simpson: Zed has another platform above this at about 600 m

[7:13] Mark Cabaret: is there a different way of defining altitude

[7:13] Elsa Dickins: is the feather essential or does it just make it quicker?

[7:13] Schomer Simpson: You get a measure of your height at the top of your display

[7:13] Faji Tulip: essential

[7:13] Woop Superior: I don’t think you can get this high without a flight feather Elsa

[7:13] Schomer Simpson: Probaly not m at all

[7:13] Mark Cabaret: ah cheers

[7:13] Mark Cabaret: something I’ve learnt

[7:14] Schomer Simpson: Over here is the display area

[7:15] Woop Superior: all built by my good self, as a demo of signs for the island

[7:15] Schomer Simpson: Not quite a web browser but useful

[7:16] Voxypat Olmstead: larger is better

[7:16] Woop Superior: they are just information displays, we can create the signs outside an upload them into SL, then drop them into the sign objects

[7:16] You: Ha! Being able to open webpages in SL - a Holy Grail Linden keep promising

[7:17] Mark Cabaret: walls

[7:17] Woop Superior: not at the moment I don’t think, other than to say feel free to come up here to build

[7:17] Schomer Simpson: Anything else up here we need to show folk Woop?

[7:17] Mark Cabaret: sorry plural

[7:17] Woop Superior: which wall?

[7:17] Mark Cabaret: can I ask why the wall?

[7:17] Mark Cabaret: is it to define the space?

[7:17] Schomer Simpson: I put a message in teh forum re buildings / walls

[7:17] Faji Tulip: ill stick my cannon up here soon, feel free to play with it :)

[7:17] Elsa Dickins: I have to go and collect stray waifs from school - see you all anon :)

[7:17] Woop Superior: was experimenting with low prim building, the building the signs are in is two prims, 1 for the walls, 1 for the roof

[7:17] Mark Cabaret: ok, byee

[7:17] You: bfn

[7:17] Schomer Simpson: I guess they allow you to: define space, hang dispalys and keep balls on the floor

[7:17] Elsa Dickins is Offline

[7:17] Woop Superior: we have a discussion on the forum reg walls/buildings/defining space

[7:18] particle test object: Touched.

[7:18] Faji Tulip: is not being able fly here a feature of something below?

[7:18] particle test object: Touched.

[7:18] Woop Superior: it’s not intentional, not sure why that is

[7:18] Schomer Simpson: The no fly is set for the palying field (the one by the reception area)

[7:18] Voxypat Olmstead: Could scripts for objects be made avialable to study?

[7:19] Schomer Simpson: It used to work - but doesn’t anymore

[7:19] Schomer Simpson: I’m still trying to get the hang of the estate settings!

[7:19] Mark Cabaret: I couldn’t fly up here, did you guys use this feather tool

[7:19] Woop Superior: we are looking at creating an area in the wiki for sharing completed scripts

[7:19] Faji Tulip: you need the feather

[7:19] Martin Pattle accepted your inventory offer.

[7:19] Faji Tulip: to go above ~200

[7:19] Voxypat Olmstead: thats cool. I have looked on SL and its difficult tofind a comprehenmsve guiide that is userfriendly

[7:19] Mark Cabaret: where is the feather?

[7:19] Schomer Simpson: We deliberately put this up high so only those in the know (with featers) could get here

[7:20] Woop Superior: I use lsl wiki a lot as a scripting resource

[7:20] You: likewise

[7:20] Woop Superior: but you still have to do a lot of scripting and debugging to really get to the bottom of how things work

[7:20] Martin Pattle: ? What is the feather?

[7:20] Mark Cabaret: cheers for the feather!

[7:20] Schomer Simpson: You wear it

[7:20] Faji Tulip: np

[7:20] Martin Pattle: I don’t have one!

[7:20] You: have you tried soem of the courses at Teazers? I found a couple quite helpful

[7:20] Schomer Simpson: anyone want to try walking the plank?

[7:20] Mark Cabaret: how did you get here then martin?

[7:20] Voxypat Olmstead: teazers?

[7:21] Schomer Simpson: Follow Woop

[7:21] Martin Pattle: I folowed someone in

[7:21] Martin Pattle: Flying from the other side

[7:21] You: can someone drop me a feather please?

[7:21] Martin Pattle gave you Flight Feather.

[7:22] You decline Flight Feather from Woop Superior.

[7:22] Schomer Simpson: Being able to walk the plank is a sure sign of a misspent youth

[7:22] Schomer Simpson: Dan did it no problem

[7:22] Mark Cabaret: my dad was a pirate, I did it np

[7:22] You: Ta

[7:22] Schomer Simpson: Shall we go to the discussion archepelago

[7:22] Schomer Simpson: Sorry Woop

[7:22] Woop Superior: sure

[7:22] Martin Pattle: I am waering feather, but still Fly is grreyed out

[7:22] Schomer Simpson: Not Dan

[7:22] Mark Cabaret: ok

[7:22] Woop Superior: lol

[7:22] Schomer Simpson: Ah - maybe the No fly is working for some people

[7:22] Woop Superior: it will kick in when you jump off Martin

[7:22] Mark Cabaret: interesting I note we’ve drifted into chat rather than meeting mode

[7:22] Martin Pattle: OK

[7:23] Schomer Simpson: lol

[7:23] Schomer Simpson: Good that we have someone trying to get us back under control

[7:23] particle test object: Touched.

[7:23] particle test object: Touched.

[7:23] Voxypat Olmstead: thanks

[7:23] particle test object: Touched.

[7:24] Schomer Simpson: Faji away

[7:24] Schomer Simpson: Off to the talkatorium then?

[7:24] Schomer Simpson: or is it the imaginarium

[7:24] Mark Cabaret: talkorama

[7:24] Martin Pattle: OK

[7:24] Schomer Simpson: On the islands in the south corner

[7:25] Woop Superior is Offline

[7:28] Mark Cabaret: can we do a shepherd tool?

[7:28] Mark Cabaret: people can lock on to another and follow?

[7:28] Martin Pattle: The group IM helps

[7:29] Martin Pattle: No, that’s justw notices

[7:29] Martin Pattle: I don’t get group IMs offline

[7:30] Schomer Simpson: If you alt left click on the red ball - then keep your alt key down you can use the arrow keys to look at everyone else in teh circle

[7:30] Schomer Simpson: Ah thats good to know

[7:30] Voxypat Olmstead: i have ben sent anim while offline

[7:30] Voxypat Olmstead: an im

[7:30] Martin Pattle: IMs from individuals are stored, not groups

[7:31] Martin Pattle: At least that’s what heppens in my groups

[7:31] Voxypat Olmstead: IMS from groups are possible?

[7:31] Schomer Simpson: So does this discussion area work for you?

[7:31] Mark Cabaret: circles are good

[7:31] Schomer Simpson: jaquie can u hear me?

[7:31] Woop Superior is Online

[7:31] You: yes

[7:32] You: here but I’ve not got audio on

[7:32] Voxypat Olmstead: I think the upper circle should be wider than the bottom. IN 1st person mode the bottom people can’t be seen

[7:32] Mark Cabaret: can we make it so you only sit facing inwards?

[7:33] Voxypat Olmstead: That would be best

[7:33] Schomer Simpson: I thought about making the top circle wider - but then the people on the bottom would not be able to see the people on the top

[7:33] Schomer Simpson: and the poeple on teh top would be looking at the heads of the people on teh bottom

[7:33] Martin Pattle: There is rtoom for about 20 people in one circle

[7:33] Schomer Simpson: I put the balls in the middle for camera anchor points

[7:33] Schomer Simpson: It is a challenge sitting the right way round

[7:33] Martin Pattle: Why have two?

[7:33] Schomer Simpson: So you can fit more people

[7:33] Mark Cabaret: will we have more than 20 at once?

[7:33] Martin Pattle: But over 20 is too many for a discussion?

[7:33] Schomer Simpson: I thought that the cahllenge of sitting correctly was a good ’natural’ learning opportunity

[7:33] Voxypat Olmstead: There is an exercsie called a goldfish bowl exercise, but i am not sure it would work in SL

[7:33] Schomer Simpson: (well that’s my excuse anyway cos I can’t do scrpits)

[7:34] Mark Cabaret: what’s that voxy?

[7:34] Faji Tulip: we could suspend another circle above us and you sit on the bottom of it

[7:34] Voxypat Olmstead: goldfish bowl discussion exerxcise

[7:34] Schomer Simpson: Yeah a goldfish bowl would be good

[7:34] Voxypat Olmstead: 2 circles 1 inner one outer

[7:34] Voxypat Olmstead: inner group discusses topic

[7:34] Faji Tulip: so at head height :)

[7:34] Schomer Simpson: Then having a smaller inner bottom circle would make sense

[7:34] You: no - that implies status

[7:34] Voxypat Olmstead: outer group observes the discussion

[7:34] Mark Cabaret: ok is there mobility

[7:34] Schomer Simpson: People from the outer group can swap in

[7:35] Mark Cabaret: do people move between circles voxy

[7:35] Voxypat Olmstead: its a variation

[7:35] Schomer Simpson: In real life you tap the person you want to replace

[7:35] Woop Superior: oo, interesting point from Jacquie, although conversation spaces designed to enforce status could be interesting from some group activities

[7:35] Voxypat Olmstead: could be used to teach about group dynamics

[7:35] Mark Cabaret: i felt the upper and lower circle implied possible status

[7:35] Woop Superior: well we all know how Schomer views things then

[7:35] You: we’d need to script an equivalent of the shoulder tap I guess

[7:35] Faji Tulip: got to go back to work, bye all

[7:35] Voxypat Olmstead: yes potentially

[7:35] You: bye

[7:36] Mark Cabaret: bye faji

[7:36] Voxypat Olmstead: bye

[7:36] Schomer Simpson: Does the fact that I’m sitting on teh bottom mean something then?

[7:36] Mark Cabaret: i got to go soon as well, any other business?

[7:36] Voxypat Olmstead: The arrnagement is so that outer members stick to observing and don’t interfer

[7:36] You: probably <g>

[7:36] Voxypat Olmstead: Happy to discuss groupwork issues in RL

[7:36] Schomer Simpson: Should we talk about the eduserve bid?

[7:36] You: If you are separating formally in that way, maybe the rings need to be different colorus?

[7:36] Schomer Simpson: Do folk have more time?

[7:36] You: I can talk for a bit

[7:37] Mark Cabaret: i need to go in about 10 -16

[7:37] Mark Cabaret: 10 -15

[7:37] Voxypat Olmstead: i’lnn need to talk to Martin in RL soon

[7:37] Woop Superior: I can, but my laptop keeps shutting down so don’t be surprised if I disappear (yet again)

[7:37] Mark Cabaret: it’s interesting how we moved into chat ratherthan a formal meeting mode

[7:37] Mark Cabaret: maybe we try a ’meeting’ sometime

[7:38] Mark Cabaret: I have a feeling things will take longer than rl

[7:38] You: Did we - or is it just more explicit here? These kinds of asides happen in meetings as well - just quicker

[7:38] Mark Cabaret: due to typing as a time limitation

[7:38] Voxypat Olmstead: About the educserve bid is there more info i can get on this. I a happy to contribute share my ideas via email

[7:38] Mark Cabaret: indeed

[7:38] Schomer Simpson: Shall I summarise my understanding of the current position re the bid?

[7:38] Mark Cabaret: sorry Schomer, floor to you

[7:38] You: yes please

[7:38] Voxypat Olmstead: yes

[7:38] Schomer Simpson: Call from Eduserve - up to £150k over 3 years

[7:39] Schomer Simpson: I have emailed around folk in the OU who might be bidding

[7:39] Woop Superior: so 50k a year? that’s not a lot

[7:39] Schomer Simpson: Asking people to let me know if they want to play - with aim of coordinating one bid from the OU

[7:39] You: Did you mail Karen Kear?

[7:39] Schomer Simpson: The call doesn’t say whether it has to be 50k per year or could be more over shoter timespan

[7:40] Schomer Simpson: No didn’t email Karen specfically - but asked Chris P to email the eLearning community

[7:40] You: Karen was talking about a bid as well

[7:40] Schomer Simpson: Tried to send message via SL OU gropu but it wouldn[’t let me

[7:40] Woop Superior: the call also said upto 150k as a guide, suggesting you could bid for more if you had an interesting and justifiable proposal

[7:41] Schomer Simpson: So far I have had expressions of interest from several of this group (including folk who are not here)

[7:41] Voxypat Olmstead: Is the bid focussed specifically on SL?

[7:41] Schomer Simpson: and from Josie taylor in IET

[7:41] Schomer Simpson: There are three bits to the bid - one of them is SL specific

[7:41] You: Josie has been tasked by PC to get involved I hear

[7:41] Schomer Simpson: Ah - that is interesting

[7:41] Woop Superior: very

[7:41] Woop Superior: we need to speak to Josie if that is the case

[7:41] Schomer Simpson: I am also trying to get Keith h from OUBS to play

[7:41] You: Agreed

[7:42] Schomer Simpson: She’s on my list ...

[7:42] Schomer Simpson: What I am thinking is that we need to do something that

[7:42] Schomer Simpson: builds on the work we are already doing - and specfically the funding from NAGTY that looks almost certain at this pont

[7:43] You: is that a pause for suggestions or just a pause?

[7:43] Schomer Simpson: Must look at issues of accessibility, inclusion, etc

[7:43] Schomer Simpson: Eduserve interested in widening participation, assistive technologies, elearning

[7:43] Voxypat Olmstead: Or teaching about those issues to groups of people?

[7:44] Schomer Simpson: Just a pause - ghough do chip in

[7:44] Schomer Simpson: Typing is much too slow for information pushing

[7:44] Woop Superior: I think whether SL is an enabler is a key issue, hence the widening participation side to things, not just teaching about it, but enabling it

[7:44] Schomer Simpson: Must have prepared notes prior to other dissemination bits of meetings

[7:45] You: soemthing about how virtual environments support learners - some form of evaluation?

[7:45] Woop Superior: formal presentations tend to be done with pre-scripted speeches that are copied and pasted in

[7:45] Schomer Simpson: Kieron wants to work with 17 to 24 year olds with physical and/or learning difficulties

[7:45] Mark Cabaret: (useful learning experience schomer)

[7:45] Schomer Simpson: Want to see if we can build in some of the work that we were discussing with Kieth re

[7:45] Schomer Simpson: testing SL for supporting ou students

[7:45] Schomer Simpson: How does ti compare to FirstClass/Moodle discussions -

[7:45] Schomer Simpson: from an affective point of view

[7:45] Woop Superior: that will be a very interesting line

[7:45] You: Ha! Very close to my COLMSCT thing!

[7:46] Schomer Simpson: Do different groups (gender, age) respond differently?

[7:46] Woop Superior: but it’s more OU specific I would have thought

[7:46] Mark Cabaret: sorry Schomer what does that mean?

[7:46] Voxypat Olmstead: I like that issue i am intereewtsed in the affectvie experience of studying inr elation to supports etc.

[7:46] Mark Cabaret: affective bit

[7:46] Schomer Simpson: I think we frame it as supporting learners at a distance

[7:46] Schomer Simpson: Just so happens we are using Ou students

[7:46] Woop Superior: Jacquie, is there any formal write up to see what the COLMSCT is using SL for?

[7:46] You: identifying the affordances of SL would eb wrothwhile?

[7:46] Schomer Simpson: I am also interested in alternative ways of acrediting learning

[7:46] Voxypat Olmstead: bridging a gap of the psychological presence between learners and tutors in distance learning?

[7:47] You: Woop: not yet as I don’t finish the report till October

[7:47] Woop Superior: ah

[7:47] Schomer Simpson: Yes Voxy

[7:47] You: But I could do a WIP write up if it woudl help here

[7:47] Schomer Simpson: I am bidding to DfES Innovation Unit and Becta for funding around alternative assessment

[7:47] Schomer Simpson: things like: using inworld rating systrems

[7:47] Schomer Simpson: thats systems

[7:48] Schomer Simpson: peer evaluation

[7:48] You: What about learning styles and learning identity?

[7:48] Voxypat Olmstead: I think there’s some employabiltiy issues here too

[7:48] Schomer Simpson: student researchers (maybe in collaboration with the OU’s Children’s Research Centre

[7:48] Schomer Simpson: Learning styles is garbage

[7:48] Woop Superior: lol, what do you mean?

[7:48] Schomer Simpson: Eveidnece base for them existing as permanent features is almost nonexistajnt

[7:48] You: Garbage yes but soemtimes a useful starting point for identity

[7:49] Voxypat Olmstead: There’s a supercool review by Coffield recently

[7:49] You: agreed - but in this environment that gets interesting because everything is malleable

[7:49] Schomer Simpson: Not convinced - you’ll have me using IQ tests next

[7:49] You: argggghhhh

[7:49] Mark Cabaret: not convinced everything here is malleable...

[7:49] Schomer Simpson: But there are interesting things about how you might embedd assessment

[7:50] Mark Cabaret: (an aside)

[7:50] Schomer Simpson: So for example, teh ramps - whilst fun - do show how good your walking is in SL (hand eye coordination

[7:50] Schomer Simpson: or is it just amount of lag

[7:50] You: bandwidth depending <g>

[7:50] Woop Superior is Offline

[7:50] Voxypat Olmstead: uit would be no good as a psychometric measure

[7:50] Mark Cabaret: (can I note I’ve pulled up the history box for the chat channel to keep an eye on the history of this as I need to refer back to previous points as we’re getting into a proper in depth conversation)

[7:50] Voxypat Olmstead: too many variables affecting performance

[7:51] Schomer Simpson: I have problems with anything that assumes we have fixed predispositions - things are context sentitive

[7:51] Schomer Simpson: So I have multiple identities - they change depending on ’where’ I am

[7:51] Mark Cabaret: (so I am now using this like an IRC chat session, the presence aspect of SL is reduced, not so significant)

[7:51] Schomer Simpson: Dan will tell you that the Peter he knows from badminton is a bit different to the Peter he knows from schome (I hope)

[7:51] You: but isn’t that teh interesting bit - how those identities shape your experiences

[7:52] You: or is it the other way around

[7:52] Martin Pattle: At ther games seminar in Online Educa, all the presenters emphasised the role play aspect as beneficial

[7:52] Martin Pattle: Allows participants to act/think outside their personalities

[7:52] Mark Cabaret: Schomer - I still remain cautious of the value of the basic skills in SL "for example, teh ramps - whilst fun - do show how good your walking is in SL (hand eye coordination"

[7:52] Schomer Simpson: yes - I think we should be looking at what we know about game playing

[7:52] Voxypat Olmstead: Role play is where it could happen from an employability perspective

[7:53] Schomer Simpson: Hence my ramps - very Sonic the hedgehog don’t you think

[7:53] Martin Pattle: I picked up a leaflet whcih has roleplay sims for management training

[7:53] Mark Cabaret: is this not about teaching people to be good at SL skills which aren’t very transferable outside?

[7:53] Voxypat Olmstead: What about resource based games?

[7:53] You: role play exercises work well for commercial stuff - we enjoy doin git

[7:53] You: oops

[7:54] Schomer Simpson: Re ’transferable skills’ - we need to do the mapping between SL skills and relevance to real world

[7:54] You: simulations are also valuable - there is a lot of mileage in setting up an inworld TV and radio station for example without having to start with assumptions about RL institutions

[7:54] Voxypat Olmstead: No the game provides a context for problem-solving skills

[7:54] Mark Cabaret: yes I think that would be great Schomer

[7:54] Voxypat Olmstead: using ps skills

[7:54] Mark Cabaret: I saw the wiki table you’ve been building

[7:54] Martin Pattle: afk

[7:54] Martin Pattle: afk

[7:55] Mark Cabaret: I think that it would be a valuable input to the discourse...

[7:55] Schomer Simpson: Yes - we need to get this on a firm basis of collecting evidence about impact onlearning

[7:56] Schomer Simpson: Or - demonstrating that it is helping folk think more creatively (about schome)

[7:56] Schomer Simpson: bearing in mind that is my main agenda

[7:56] Woop Superior is Online

[7:56] Schomer Simpson: It is interesting how simple things - like my playing field vs Dan’s thing - show different views

[7:57] Mark Cabaret: indeed

[7:57] Mark Cabaret: I like this page being astarted

[7:57] Schomer Simpson: Similarly - I started planning to put in footpaths - and am now thinking about sonic ramps (a few metres off the ground)

[7:57] Mark Cabaret: but some of the basic stuff I am a bit cautious of

[7:57] Schomer Simpson: Yes that page is crucial - need folk to chip in and critique/extend

[7:58] Schomer Simpson: I will also be starting the ’soft skills’ Knowledge age sills page soon

[7:58] Mark Cabaret: I guess it’s just being proper and methodical starting with the dead simple stuff

[7:58] You: Do you want some of the bits from the beginers guide

[7:58] Schomer Simpson: Yup

[7:58] Schomer Simpson: At the most basic level we need to show engagemetn

[7:58] You: ’kay

[7:58] Schomer Simpson: From NAGTY’s point of view they want to know if more of their students engage in this context than through a text based forum

[7:58] You: I’ve also got some ’soft skills’ stuff I’ve being doing for iskills which I can throw up if you like

[7:58] Mark Cabaret: ah that’s interesting Schomer

[7:58] Woop Superior: absolutely, if what we create is not compelling, we’ve messed up

[7:59] Schomer Simpson: Jaquie that would be helpful

[7:59] You: ’k

[7:59] Mark Cabaret: do we have something from txt based fora that we can use to compare "engagment"

[7:59] Mark Cabaret: do they measure lurking in txt chat spaces?

[7:59] You: How do we evaluate ’engage’?

[7:59] Schomer Simpson: One of the things taht I think will make this compelling is to provide the learners with the tools to play

[7:59] Mark Cabaret: Jacqui: guess many levels eh?

[7:59] Schomer Simpson: NAGTY have data on use of their discussion areas

[7:59] Mark Cabaret: 1. logging in

[8:00] Mark Cabaret: 2. moving around

[8:00] Mark Cabaret: 3. chat history?

[8:00] Mark Cabaret: as basic starters?

[8:00] Schomer Simpson: So for example - if we give folk ramp sections (like scalextrix) they could guild their own sonic race courses

[8:00] You: Are we looking at basic interface skills/interaction or more towards immersion? Logging in and moving around are basic surely?

[8:01] Mark Cabaret: Schomer - can we look at the NAGTY data?

[8:01] Schomer Simpson: I’m having too many conversationgs at once here

[8:01] Mark Cabaret: I agree Jacqui - I am a qualitiative guy myself

[8:01] Schomer Simpson: Talking realworld with Dan

[8:01] You: Mark: me too

[8:01] Mark Cabaret: but it’s a useful starting point for minimal indications of interaction

[8:02] Mark Cabaret: same problem with web based stuff

[8:02] Schomer Simpson: Loosing track of conversation here

[8:02] Mark Cabaret: which is why I am interested in what NAGTY are describing as "engagement" in txt spces

[8:02] Schomer Simpson: I suspect atht we weill be able to get basic NAGTY data

[8:02] Woop Superior: I think moving around is over-rated, you can fly in world

[8:02] Woop Superior: so movement is less of an issue

[8:03] You: Mark: And to what extent that maps to the large no of ’residents’ who only ever log in for about 30 mins at a time because they are not interacting

[8:03] Schomer Simpson: I’m less clear about what data we get provided with re login etc in SL

[8:03] Woop Superior: nevertheless you CAN use the space for people to creatively engineer pathways or the like as some sort of problem-solving task

[8:03] Woop Superior: we can use sensors on the island.,..

[8:03] Mark Cabaret: to be cynical and ticking the boxes for funding purposes if Nagty define engagement in txt spcs as logging in and typing something we can do a comparative measure

[8:03] You: LL have data but don’t know if they release it

[8:03] Woop Superior: to monitor a certain amount of things

[8:03] Mark Cabaret: ah good point re access data

[8:03] Woop Superior: these can be savged and emailed out to us to monitor activiity

[8:03] Schomer Simpson: We have some much stronger evaluation criteria with NAGTY

[8:03] Voxypat Olmstead: What about using the machinam as evidence?

[8:04] Voxypat Olmstead: machinima

[8:04] Mark Cabaret: do we get data on who visits our island

[8:04] Schomer Simpson: which is linked to the skills levels - in terms of SL and Knowledge age skills

[8:04] Mark Cabaret: machinama - way too time consuming surely?

[8:04] Mark Cabaret: qual vs quant data issue I guess :-)

[8:04] Woop Superior: I think machinima would be a really good way to engage visitors, but I’m not sure how difficult making them woudl be

[8:04] You: very time consuming

[8:04] Voxypat Olmstead: As a long term but if you run short projects or task group syou could video aspects of it and use them to illustrate

[8:04] Schomer Simpson: Jacqui - do you get data on people who access your island

[8:04] You: no

[8:05] You: only on how many objects they have built

[8:05] You: and left there

[8:05] Schomer Simpson: Hmm

[8:05] Mark Cabaret: shame

[8:05] Woop Superior: you coudl put on virtual plays instead of doing machinima

[8:05] Mark Cabaret: get people to "clock in" somehow?

[8:05] Woop Superior: people could create all sorts of things for a ’virtual’ play that would be impossible in RL

[8:06] Voxypat Olmstead: The play is the product of their enagement with each other

[8:06] Mark Cabaret: clocking in - if somebody’s in yr friends list you know when thye are online, can you collect that on yr machine or is it held on LL server only?

[8:06] Schomer Simpson: I think we will need ways for folk to log in when teh login

[8:06] Schomer Simpson: if you get me

[8:06] Woop Superior: well it must be sent client-side in some way shape or form Mark

[8:07] Mark Cabaret: as in could somebody have all the students in their friends list therefore know who’s online and when

[8:07] Woop Superior: what we can do is do online presence boards for ourselves ’the island staff’ as it were

[8:07] Woop Superior: and also try and use sensors to monitor activities on our island, not too hard

[8:07] Schomer Simpson: Was thinking that one of the tasks of the folk on the ’help desk’ would be to take regular polls (manual guestimates) of how many folk are on our island

[8:07] Mark Cabaret: I guess some sort of passive tracker I guess yeah woop

[8:07] You: you can look on the map at any time to see how many folks are there at that time - crude but may be useful

[8:07] Woop Superior: for instance it would be a doddle to find out how many times the rocket chair had been ridden

[8:08] Schomer Simpson: Also getting activity leaders to log number of participants etc (NAGTY tends to work around short ’courses’)

[8:08] Mark Cabaret: could you find out *who* has used the chair?

[8:08] Woop Superior: similarly if we had an interactive exhibit of volcanic activity, we could save info on how many times the buttons to operate it had been pressed

[8:08] Mark Cabaret: yeah if you think about my game or another you can get people to ask to join

[8:08] Mark Cabaret: so you’re tracking but not in an intrusive way

[8:09] You: we could probably have a bot to record who has done x which they could choose to click

[8:09] You: otehrwise I think we might be in breach of LL research ethics based on a recent SLED discussion

[8:09] Schomer Simpson: We also need to think about issues to do with interaction tracking - like chat logger

[8:09] Schomer Simpson: That is important both from a child protetcion point of view and to capture data about teh sorts of

[8:10] Schomer Simpson: issues taht folk are raising with the help desk

[8:10] Mark Cabaret: Jacqui could you post up ethics discussion on the schome wiki or a link to it

[8:10] You: will do

[8:10] Mark Cabaret: cheers

[8:10] Woop Superior: the research ethics discussion is an interesting one, but we did to have some kind of metrics

[8:11] Schomer Simpson: Yes - I need to set up info on the notecard you get when you come to SB for the first time about research

[8:11] Woop Superior: I think as long as it is not overly obtrusive into identity and what any one individual has done, you are on safe ground

[8:11] Mark Cabaret: sure not mutually exclusive woop

[8:11] Woop Superior: similar codes exist with the way we monitor server logs

[8:11] Schomer Simpson: Interesting question about protecting the identity of the avatar

[8:11] Mark Cabaret: I think if you let peopl know what you’re logging before they come in

[8:11] You: yes - alhtough I think you still need consent

[8:11] Mark Cabaret: more dodgy to collect data and not tell them

[8:12] Woop Superior: do you need consent to monitor web activity?

[8:12] Schomer Simpson: Definitely need to be upfront

[8:12] You: Not so long ago LL issued instructions taht you shouldn’t use snapshots of SL events with av names visible without permission from all those avs

[8:12] Mark Cabaret: woop: not to my knowledge but some grey areas

[8:12] Mark Cabaret: easier to post up terms and conditions up front

[8:13] Mark Cabaret: issues if topics drift into controversial areas

[8:13] Mark Cabaret: we couldfollow models for other online spaces

[8:13] Mark Cabaret: e.g. discussion boards

[8:13] Woop Superior: I can tell you you don’t need consent, I work in IT/web etc. sorry, I’m not trying to sounds like a pain, idealogically I don’t think we SHOULD hold all that data, I just know that web logs DO

[8:13] Mark Cabaret: this is basically a discussion board and modelling environment?

[8:13] Mark Cabaret: woop: you try doing research on vulnerable people

[8:14] Mark Cabaret: not so simple

[8:14] Mark Cabaret: can’t just put up chat logs of people talking about abuse situations

[8:14] Mark Cabaret: maybe legally you can but ethical issue

[8:14] Woop Superior: it’s hugely contentious I know, but even the OU has enormous amounts of detail on what its users have been upto

[8:14] Schomer Simpson: I think in order to conform to BERA ethical standards we would need to be upfront about much of our data collection (other than basic stats on numbers of prticipants)

[8:14] Mark Cabaret: if somebody feels its a private space e.g. rape, other sexual abuse etc

[8:14] Woop Superior: and one of the reasons we actually have to do so is to protect people

[8:15] Schomer Simpson: There are a number of issues here

[8:15] Mark Cabaret: OU can hold information but has to be careful about what it releases I think

[8:15] Schomer Simpson: There are issues about child protection - for which we need to have logs of interactions between our staff and kids so we can ensure that nothing improper is taking place

[8:15] Mark Cabaret: I’m guessing that the good thing is that this has been covered before in other online spaces

[8:15] Mark Cabaret: we don’t need to sweat too much

[8:15] Schomer Simpson: For our research - we need permission

[8:15] Mark Cabaret: but follow other models

[8:15] Woop Superior: we hold it so we can act on any report of misuse as much as anything, we have to be able to respond if someone reports abuse

[8:16] Mark Cabaret: ’fsure woop

[8:16] Schomer Simpson: Voxypat - I’ve IMed you

[8:16] Woop Superior: well, that’s killed the conversation ;-)

[8:16] Voxypat Olmstead: i was listening

[8:16] Mark Cabaret: nah, typing breather, that’s all!

[8:17] Schomer Simpson: My fingers will be pleased then - not used to this keyboard

[8:17] Mark Cabaret: this is more tiring than f2f meetings!

[8:17] Schomer Simpson: Much

[8:17] Mark Cabaret: learning outcome! :-)

[8:17] Schomer Simpson: We need to sort out audio ...???

[8:17] You: Vivox maybe?

[8:17] Woop Superior: that was one feature of the ISM tour, thought it was excellent, but it was indeed very hard work to concentrate for two hours

[8:17] You: Or Skype at the same time?

[8:17] Woop Superior: especially when looking at IMs as well as chat

[8:17] Mark Cabaret: is anybody actually using the vr aspect of SL at the moment? I am treating it like a chat space

[8:18] You: Vivox is good for protecting identities because you can change your voice

[8:18] Mark Cabaret: I have opened the chat history window right up to fill the screen almost

[8:18] Mark Cabaret: I suppose we are moving betweeen modes eh?

[8:18] Schomer Simpson: So much for presence!

[8:18] Mark Cabaret: prolly I would change if somebody suggested we fly to somewhere else

[8:18] Woop Superior: the 3d presence are very important in how we perceive our surroundings, the company we are in, expectations of behvaiour etc

[8:19] You: it’s because we all sat down - we conformed to the metaphor

[8:19] You: meetings without a ’sitting space’ are different

[8:19] Mark Cabaret: I think you have a point - I don’t have to concentrate as much on SL because we are sitting down

[8:19] Woop Superior: this kind of meeting is still very useful

[8:19] Voxypat Olmstead: But more dificult to track who’s there

[8:19] Schomer Simpson: Different how

[8:19] Mark Cabaret: I can give the thinking more time

[8:19] Woop Superior: I’d rather be doing it here than in a messaging client

[8:19] Mark Cabaret: definitely woop! very usefl

[8:20] Mark Cabaret: I think it’s different fsure woop and prolly adds something

[8:20] You: people fly around, wander around, have more IM conversations, teleport off and come back

[8:20] Schomer Simpson: I’d rather be doing it on my own computer with an ergonic keyboard!

[8:20] Mark Cabaret: trying to tease out the differece

[8:20] Voxypat Olmstead: Folks i need to go as I got some stuff to catch up with

[8:20] Schomer Simpson: So who here is having IM chats now too?

[8:20] Schomer Simpson: See you Voxy

[8:20] You: not me fora change <g>

[8:20] You: bye Voxy

[8:20] Mark Cabaret: yeah I gotta o some other stuff soon

[8:20] Voxypat Olmstead: bye

[8:20] You: yeah - i shoudl be out on teh yard really

[8:21] Mark Cabaret: byee voxy

[8:21] Schomer Simpson: Poll on who is doing IM now too - go

[8:21] Woop Superior: and we can move space very easily if we desire, to another island, if we had a board we coudl share snapshots or whatever, bit more depth to working in this as a client, but yees, clearly a large part of collaborative working in here is how it functions as a messaging client

[8:21] Mark Cabaret: I think this is really useful stuff

[8:21] Mark Cabaret: I think we’ve got a really xcontroled environemnt

[8:21] You: yup - helping frame mythinking

[8:21] Mark Cabaret: we are learning some valuable lessons for this time when we are hosting 20, 30 people who don’t know the protocols

[8:22] Mark Cabaret: how best to organise them

[8:22] Mark Cabaret: organise events to subtly shepherd them or offer thm learning opportunities

[8:23] Mark Cabaret: I assume the first time 17 yr old students come in this space they’ll just whizz off in every direction! :-)

[8:23] Woop Superior: I’m not sure you can handle 20-30 in a ’chat’ you’d have to have either a lecture with that number, or break our into smaller groups

[8:23] Schomer Simpson: Do you think we can knock Marting off teh bench while he’s snoozing?

[8:23] Mark Cabaret: interesting the experience of us moving from once place to another today

[8:23] You: we need that cannon back

[8:23] Woop Superior: our signs should allow people to work in an area, engage in the activity, regardless of whether anyone is around to help obviously

[8:24] Schomer Simpson: mark - are you trying to knock him off?

[8:24] Schomer Simpson: I think I’ve got pushing turned off in the estate controls

[8:24] Mark Cabaret: yeah he’s well asleep ’=_0

[8:24] Schomer Simpson: I think we should call it a day

[8:24] Mark Cabaret: ;-)

[8:24] Schomer Simpson: Getting v tierd

[8:25] Martin Pattle is Offline

[8:25] Mark Cabaret: yup

[8:25] Woop Superior: leave Martin to his sleep

[8:25] Mark Cabaret: cheers for good meeting

[8:25] You: different view from here

[8:25] You: cheers

[8:25] Woop Superior: lol

[8:25] Schomer Simpson: See you all soon - anyone been taking notes - want to post them on the wiki (or do we need everyone’s permission?)

[8:25] You: very useful - thanks - especially for those of us not on campus

[8:25] Woop Superior: I’ve been in and out so many times I don’t have a good chat history

[8:26] Mark Cabaret: useful for me for sure

[8:26] Mark Cabaret: ok bye bye

[8:26] Woop Superior: c ya

[8:26] You: c ya _ i’ve got the chat now

[8:26] You: or the bits I was in anyway

[8:26] Woop Superior: cheers Jacquie, see you soon

[8:26] You: bye