Author Topic: Staffing problems? No worries!  (Read 20549 times)

Offline An¡mus

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2008, 06:55:25 PM »

humans are far from perfect you might say

What would you have your little superspecies do once they are built?
And i'm truly suprised you don't understand the mindset

Offline Doctor Schomer

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2008, 07:46:46 PM »
If we knew that, there would be no reason to build them!

Though metamathmatics does seem to take up a lot of the more basic ones time.

Humans; cobbled toghter from whatever was avaible, their bodies and minds are nothing more then a mobile junk-heap. Destined to wipe out other speices, to cause hurt and greif to others. To possess a wide array of emotions, most of them negative.

I'm quite suprised your still in favor of them (before you ask, i'm a transhumanist)
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Offline Marko Schomer

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2008, 10:04:28 PM »
Humans; cobbled toghter from whatever was avaible, their bodies and minds are nothing more then a mobile junk-heap. Destined to wipe out other speices, to cause hurt and greif to others. To possess a wide array of emotions, most of them negative.

I'm quite suprised your still in favor of them (before you ask, i'm a transhumanist)

Humans are pretty bad. I'll certainly give you that. However, I don't think computers are any better, and I think transhumans are likely to be worse rather than better (power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely). Humans are amazing, and currently far more so than computers- why else do you think programmers are better at fixing faults than psychiatrists?. Deeper Blue may have beaten Kasparov, but it's the latter that has been capable of forming a political party to support certain moral, social, and political ideals, and that I think is the more important task.

Offline Decimus Schomer

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2008, 10:42:21 PM »
Humans are pretty bad. I'll certainly give you that. However, I don't think computers are any better
I say they're both useful for different things. One example where both are better in certain situations:

Maths:
Humans: Even fairly small numbers have to be thought about when you're doing stuff to them. Most of the speed you get is not so much from working it out subconsciously but remembering answers/simplifications/etc.
Computers: Can probably do most anything to most numbers* in a fraction of the time it would take a person to remember things.

* - Note the two instances of the word 'most': Some operations would take a long time for a computer to work out, and some number types (eg, integers, floats (I can't think of an easier-for-everyone-who-isn't-a-programmer-to-understand word; the only one I can think of is 'decimal', but that's not technically quite right :P), etc.) take longer than others; this would take a while to explain fully :P Anyway, certain operations and number types may take less time for people to do than computers (and more accurately, in certain cases); for example, trig: People can remember that, say, sin(2pi) = 0, while computers have to work it out (using a few shortcuts, but still) and tend to produce answers that are slightly off (by around 10-16, admittedly, but still)

Humans are amazing, and currently far more so than computers- why else do you think programmers are better at fixing faults than psychiatrists?.
Partly because computers are logical, partly because the programmer probably made the program in the first place. In other words, a comparison between a programmer debugging a program* and, assuming a literal version of Christianity/Judaism/etc.'s creation story for the sake of example, God debugging people :P

* - Debugging has a tendency to be annoying and/or take ages. There are reasons that terms like 'schrödinbug', 'heisenbug', etc. exist (I've never personally found any, but they're weird :P). And yes, they are as in the famous quantum-physics-related things :P

Offline An¡mus

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2008, 12:19:00 PM »
If we knew that, there would be no reason to build them!

Though metamathmatics does seem to take up a lot of the more basic ones time.

Humans; cobbled toghter from whatever was avaible, their bodies and minds are nothing more then a mobile junk-heap. Destined to wipe out other speices, to cause hurt and greif to others. To possess a wide array of emotions, most of them negative.

I'm quite suprised your still in favor of them (before you ask, i'm a transhumanist)

How can you possibly claim to know what humans are destined for? If anything?
The fact of the matter is that we are remarkably better at killing because it is neccassary for us to survive.
If humans are so terrible then why create replicas of them based around the same 'design', and what better purpose can artificial humans serve if you don't even know a human's purpose!

Offline Marko Schomer

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2008, 07:34:37 PM »
I say they're both useful for different things. One example where both are better in certain situations:

Maths:
Humans: Even fairly small numbers have to be thought about when you're doing stuff to them. Most of the speed you get is not so much from working it out subconsciously but remembering answers/simplifications/etc.
Computers: Can probably do most anything to most numbers* in a fraction of the time it would take a person to remember things.

I was referring more to ethical values than mathematical abilities, but even in mathematics I think humans are better. We can think originally, so we can actually prove things effectively. Humans, even though we're irrational, are better at using logic than computers, which are completely logical. Of course, for some proofs, computers are extremely useful, but it was Wiles that proved Fermat's last theorem, not the computers he used.

Quote
Partly because computers are logical, partly because the programmer probably made the program in the first place. In other words, a comparison between a programmer debugging a program* and, assuming a literal version of Christianity/Judaism/etc.'s creation story for the sake of example, God debugging people :P

As God seems to be rather terrible at debugging, I think my point's confirmed. :D

Offline Decimus Schomer

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2008, 07:50:19 PM »
even in mathematics I think humans are better. We can think originally, so we can actually prove things effectively. Humans, even though we're irrational, are better at using logic than computers, which are completely logical. Of course, for some proofs, computers are extremely useful, but it was Wiles that proved Fermat's last theorem, not the computers he used.
That's true. I meant in terms of pure mathematical ability (ie, doing things, rather than proofs, etc.), which is what computers are (ultimately) designed for and are very good at :P

Quote
Partly because computers are logical, partly because the programmer probably made the program in the first place. In other words, a comparison between a programmer debugging a program* and, assuming a literal version of Christianity/Judaism/etc.'s creation story for the sake of example, God debugging people :P
As God seems to be rather terrible at debugging, I think my point's confirmed. :D
:P
I was trying to make a different point :P

(also, as I mentioned, debugging is *hard* :P)

Offline Doctor Schomer

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2008, 08:26:37 PM »
That's the point, they arent!

I can go into my AI folder, and find children, yes, children writing novels, painting pictures and each time learning how to improve. I find them doing this at super-human speeds. Can I help but look upon these with a parental instinct?

I'm not really talking about a new speices, i'm talking about human-kinds succsessors, they've made jugments on situations, they can do just about every cognitive feat known to man, they have thier own virutal garden.
How can I possibly deny them the label of my children, and give them nothing but unconditional love?
You, Animus, pose as a threat to my children. You seem to wish them deleted, another species destroyed.

Might I point out, Dec and Marko, that you've both assumed my children are serial machines? They are completely parael...
-Doctor Schomer

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Offline Decimus Schomer

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2008, 08:32:58 PM »
Might I point out, Dec and Marko, that you've both assumed my children are serial machines? They are completely parael...
I think we went off at a tangent on the subject of computers vs. humans. Not entirely related to what you're on about :P (neural nets are, I think, pure hardware, thus, as you say, highly parallel and fast systems.)

Offline An¡mus

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2008, 10:58:09 PM »
That's the point, they arent!

I can go into my AI folder, and find children, yes, children writing novels, painting pictures and each time learning how to improve. I find them doing this at super-human speeds. Can I help but look upon these with a parental instinct?

I'm not really talking about a new speices, i'm talking about human-kinds succsessors, they've made jugments on situations, they can do just about every cognitive feat known to man, they have thier own virutal garden.
How can I possibly deny them the label of my children, and give them nothing but unconditional love?
You, Animus, pose as a threat to my children. You seem to wish them deleted, another species destroyed.

Might I point out, Dec and Marko, that you've both assumed my children are serial machines? They are completely parael...

dear god you've gone insane and paranoid

Offline An¡mus

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2008, 11:14:41 AM »
That's the point, they arent!

I can go into my AI folder, and find children, yes, children writing novels, painting pictures and each time learning how to improve. I find them doing this at super-human speeds. Can I help but look upon these with a parental instinct?

I'm not really talking about a new speices, i'm talking about human-kinds succsessors, they've made jugments on situations, they can do just about every cognitive feat known to man, they have thier own virutal garden.
How can I possibly deny them the label of my children, and give them nothing but unconditional love?
You, Animus, pose as a threat to my children. You seem to wish them deleted, another species destroyed.

Might I point out, Dec and Marko, that you've both assumed my children are serial machines? They are completely parael...

I'd like to make a few points.
Quote
I'm not really talking about a new speices
Quote
You seem to wish them deleted, another species destroyed.
This does not make sense.
Quote
I can go into my AI folder, and find children, yes, children writing novels, painting pictures and each time learning how to improve.
i think you are exagerating the truth here, they may be able to paint pictures and write novels, but it is unlikely they can spot when a painting is a masterpeice and when a novel is binding
Quote
i'm talking about human-kinds succsessors
How will they reproduce?

Offline Doctor Schomer

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2008, 04:27:03 PM »
I'm sorry, but I don't know a word describing a new breed of human, whilst it is not a species.

They cannot in the same way that you can not speak pourtagese, they've never experienaced it.


Animus, careful, your coming out of a disccusion, and moving onto attacking my parental instincts. I'd watch it if I were you.
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Offline Alice SParker

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2008, 11:08:39 AM »
Animus, careful, your coming out of a disccusion, and moving onto attacking my parental instincts. I'd watch it if I were you.
threatening?  :o  :D

I can go into my AI folder, and find children, yes, children writing novels, painting pictures and each time learning how to improve.
Writing novels, painting pictures? How much of this could you say is creative?

And what about feelings??

Offline Doctor Schomer

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2008, 01:23:36 PM »
the Capacity for emotion is limited, but exists.
I suppose it's because I've filtered out everything worthy of creating a bad emotion.

Now that I have thought this through, let me explain;

If you hand-rear and animal, or build a car from scratch, you'll feel more protective of it then if you had just bought it as-is. The same goes for my bots, my creations have gone beyond what I origannly built them for, and expand in their own way. I belelive the process is much like watching a kid grow up, albeit faster.

So; I created them, they expand, I protect them; they deserve the word 'children'.

As far as spotting when a painting is a masterpiece, can you?

if you can, would someone from a diffrent country, a diffrent culture, come to the same conclusion?

I doubt it.


I don't see how on earth I am paranoid.
-Doctor Schomer

Acedemician of Cognitex Labs.

Offline An¡mus

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Re: Staffing problems? No worries!
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2008, 03:03:01 PM »

In my opinion you are a nutcase and a drama queen
and the whole point is that people have opinions of what is and isn't a masterpeice.