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Schome Park Programme => Reflection and forward planning => Topic started by: Doctor Schomer on June 06, 2008, 01:37:05 PM



Title: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 06, 2008, 01:37:05 PM
Recently, I got into a heated debate with my nephew about Second Life.

My nephew told me (this is something along the lines of what he said) That Second Life is a MMORPG; a game, a massive online game, but still a game.

My point; a game, and a MMORPG, denotes fiction, role-playing, make believe.
Second Life uses non-fictional enviroments, where imagination creates cyberspace-tangible objects. Where you deal with non-fictional people.

My nephew gave the defintion of a game; that of a program with a controller to operate within an envrioment.

Counter-point; by the above defintion, every single program on a computer 'is' a game, when, of course, most (or some, if your an avid gamer) are not.

I am struggling to find a stronger counter-point. Second Life can be a game, it can be just about everything else as well, apparently. Yet I cannot see exactly how to get the verbal 'check-mate' here.
Please help, this could prove to be interesting...


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Fox Phlox on June 06, 2008, 02:13:52 PM
A couple of definitions of 'game' from Tony Hirst's Digital Worlds blog

Juul defines a game as:
'a rule-based formal system with a variable and quantifiable outcome, where different outcomes are assigned different values, the player exerts effort in order to influence the outcome, the player feels attached to the outcome, and the consequences of the activity are optional and negotiable.'
Hirst defines a game as:
'a directed activity played for entertainment that consists of an aim or set of objectives, which are achieved using specific components by means of a set of rules.'

discussion of these and other definitions at
http://digitalworlds.wordpress.com/category/what-is-a-game/


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Achilles Schomer on June 06, 2008, 02:43:26 PM
'a directed activity played for entertainment that consists of an aim or set of objectives, which are achieved using specific components by means of a set of rules.'

Second life has rules but no objective -Checkmate


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Marko Schomer on June 06, 2008, 04:07:02 PM
I'd say Second Life is a MMORPG, but in the same way as Conway's game of life is a game- there aren't objectives except those you set yourself, but you do try to achieve certain things in the framework of the client software and of other users.


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: An¡mus on June 06, 2008, 05:41:20 PM
Recently, I got into a heated debate with my nephew about Second Life.

My nephew told me (this is something along the lines of what he said) That Second Life is a MMORPG; a game, a massive online game, but still a game.

My point; a game, and a MMORPG, denotes fiction, role-playing, make believe.
Second Life uses non-fictional enviroments, where imagination creates cyberspace-tangible objects. Where you deal with non-fictional people.

My nephew gave the defintion of a game; that of a program with a controller to operate within an envrioment.

Counter-point; by the above defintion, every single program on a computer 'is' a game, when, of course, most (or some, if your an avid gamer) are not.

I am struggling to find a stronger counter-point. Second Life can be a game, it can be just about everything else as well, apparently. Yet I cannot see exactly how to get the verbal 'check-mate' here.
Please help, this could prove to be interesting...

Well in traditional methods, games were played interacting with real people, so I think doing this online would (or could) count as a game.
You spend real money for privalages on second life much as you do with Habbo Hotel, Club Penguin or Runescape which are described as online games for children.
In games there is a purpose you are trying to achieve (usually before anyone else), whether this could be compared to the purpose seeking of second life users I think is argueable as objectives in the environment are up to the users themselves rather than set objectives.
I got up to this point and then was stumped by whether i considered it a game or not. I think the fact of the matter is that it can be a game if you choose it to be, but it can be a career, a learning experience, a business environment, a social network and so much more.
The best way to think about it is a platform. At this point I am fully expecting Kathy to jump in with Linden Lab's definition of second life.

Your point about games being fiction is invalid, as I have seen many real life environments and cities stunningly created in what are considered games, factual history has been portrayed in them, I have seen people making friends, I have seen people challenge the game creators, escaping maps, finding glitches. These people are blurring the border between fiction and non-fiction.
I will get back to this once I've eaten :)


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 06, 2008, 06:13:25 PM
My nephew is quite aware of 'sandbox' games.

But Second Life is more, surely? If you were on Schome, in a class, would you say, should someone ask you, 'I'm playing a game'?

This 'blurring' I suppose is the product of an increasingly digital world, but there is still a point where I'm beginning to feel we encroach upon the limits of the English language.



Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Kathy Schomer on June 06, 2008, 06:22:15 PM
Linden Lab define Second Life as a "platform", although they call the mainland of Second Life a "place." Easy enough. Or, more specifically, it is "an online world that advances the human condition." Philip Rosedale also defines it as "a country."

Also, a game requires goals. Second Life provides no goals, so it's not a game. You can use it as a game by making up your own, however.

Second Life is only a game if the Internet is a game; both contain games, but neither is a game in itself. (Actually, one of Linden Lab's goals is to make Second Life as ubiquitous as the world wide web, through AjaxLife-style clients on phones and such as well as the 3D interface.)


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Miss. Vibia on June 06, 2008, 06:24:12 PM
Technically could it not be desribed as a micronation??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation

Although a landless one. But could it not fit??


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: KitKatKid Schomer on June 06, 2008, 06:25:46 PM
Micronations can be online based.


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Miss. Vibia on June 06, 2008, 06:29:39 PM
They can be, or they can be landless ones, I just thought Second Life may fit into the landless catagory.


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Alice SParker on June 06, 2008, 07:42:05 PM
i see it as a platform.. a platform for 'communication' as the main purpose - be it personal communication, for business or education. I think its main difference from other computer-mediated tools is its being 3-D, rather than being put together on an interface.. Then, as more people communicate and get together, they become groups, communities or micro-nations.


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Fox Phlox on June 06, 2008, 08:31:57 PM
One question is - do we gain anything by referring to it as a game - or by not referring to it as a game?

I think we lose out if we define it as a game, because that obscures all the other things that it is.

Why is your nephew so keen on it being a game, Doctor?


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Spiral Schomer on June 06, 2008, 08:34:04 PM
Does it really make a difference what people refer to it as?

Alot of people at my school see it as a game, but I suppose if I had to define it, I would class it as a 3d virtual word which enhances communication.


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 06, 2008, 09:26:58 PM
But a sandbox game has no goals, ether, it has the very wide goal of 'being fun' but that cant really count as a goal.
 
Your not running to your base with the enemies flag, your not killing....unless you want to...

My goal is to try and find a word that describes it, but that word cannot be so vague as a 'place'

After talking with my nephew, he has quite happily repeated his sentence of a game being a program that you obtain results by using a controller (be it keyboard, mouse or otherwise).

So, after noticing this loop in his logic, how do we snap him out of it?




Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Kathy Schomer on June 06, 2008, 09:30:02 PM
Tell him that doing his homework is a game called Microsoft Word. :P

"Sandbox games" aren't actually games - they're technically toys. Problem solved.


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Achilles Schomer on June 06, 2008, 09:36:13 PM
Writing the oxford english dictionary must be fun...  :P


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 06, 2008, 09:58:53 PM
Right, i'll get back to you on this...


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 07, 2008, 12:25:25 PM
Well, can't snap him out of it, but I think I know how to solve it;

Can anyone give me the definition of a 'game' regardless of it's type?


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Fox Phlox on June 07, 2008, 01:26:22 PM
According to the online Oxford English Dictionary:

I. 1. Amusement, delight, fun, mirth, sport. Often in game and glee, game and play, joy and game; also game and solace. upon her game: in fun. no game = ‘no fun’. Obs. exc. dial.

2.    a. Jest, as opposed to earnest. Also (with a), a joke or jest. Obs. exc. as in b.
b. Phr. to make a) game of (also on): to make fun of, jest at, turn into ridicule. to make game (to be): to pretend for fun (rare).
c. An object of ridicule, laughing-stock. Also laughing game. Obs.

3. a. An amusement, diversion, pastime. Also collect., play, diversion. at game: at play.
b. spec. Amorous sport or play, now esp. signifying sexual intercourse.
c. colloq. An amusing incident; a piece of fun; a ‘lark’.

4. a. A diversion of the nature of a contest, played according to rules, and displaying in the result the superiority either in skill, strength, or good fortune of the winner or winners. For round, square game, see ROUND, SQUARE. at game: at play.

b. Gr. and Rom. Antiq. Usually pl. (= L. ludi): Athletic, dramatic, and musical contests; gladiatorial and other shows.

c. the game: the proper method of playing; correct play. lit. and fig. (See also PLAY v. 16b.)

d. pl. In Scotland, a number of contests in athletics, piping, and dancing held esp. in various Highland centres; a meeting for the purpose of holding such contests; freq. in Highland games.

e. pl. Athletics or sports as organized in a school, college, etc. Freq. attrib. (see sense 16c).

f. The Game: a form of charades.

5. fig.    a. A proceeding, scheme, intrigue, undertaking, followed up like a game. So often, to play a losing, a waiting game. {dag}to make a saving game of it: to retrieve one's losses in the end. Colloq. phr. two can play at that game: others can act in a similar way (usu. said as a threat of retaliation for unfair dealing).

b. A person's policy or plan of action; esp. in such jocular phrases as that's your little game! the same old game! Also, the course best suited to one's interests.

c. to play the game of: to act so as to secure the advantage or interest of.

d. pl. ‘Dodges’, tricks.

e. the game: thieving, housebreaking; freq. in phr. on the game. Thieves' slang.

f. the game: prostitution; usu. in phr. on the game. (Cf. quot. 1606 for sense 3b above.) slang.

6. a. A definite portion of play in any ‘game’ (sense 4), terminated by the victory of one side, or the recognition that no victory can be gained; ‘a match at play’ (J.).
 
b. Phrases (often used fig.). the game is up, is over = is lost. to force the game (see FORCE v.1 3c and 5). {dag}to play the whole game (see quot. 1732). {dag}out of one's game: not playing. to have the game out: to play it to the end. game and game: one game scored to each side. game, set, and match, a complete and decisive victory (from the use in Lawn Tennis).

c. with qualifying adj. (to play) a good, a poor, etc. game: to be a skilful player (or the contrary). {dag}a great, small, high, or low game: indicating the magnitude of the stakes played for.

d. Position or advantage in play.

e. The course or event of a game. Also fig.


f. A person's performance in a particular game; the normal standard of one's play; to be on (or off) one's game, to be playing well (or badly); to be in (or out of) form. Cf. quot. 1885 under sense 6c above.

7. The winning position, the victory in a contest, the mastery (in early use the best game). Also, the prize contended for. Obs.

8. In various applications.    a. A ‘set’ of players.    b. A HAND at cards.    c. pl. In trade use: The apparatus for playing particular games.    d. The number of points required for winning.    e. The state of the game.    f. In certain card games: The possession, at the end of a game, of the largest number of pips, for which the player scores one or more points.    g. within, out of (one's) game: within, out of one's range of play (in Croquet, etc.).

h. Chess.    (i) A method of play, esp. a series of initial moves;  (ii) A sequence of moves forming a recognized stage in the play, esp. in end-game

9. Sport derived from the chase. dog of game: one used in hunting or sporting. to be in game: to be engaged in the chase. Obs.

10. a. The object of the chase; the animal or animals hunted.

 b. transf. and fig. An object of pursuit; also, an object in view. fair game: a legitimate object of pursuit, attack, etc.; also forbidden game.

11. collect.    a. Wild animals or birds such as are pursued, caught or killed in the chase.

b. The flesh of such animals used for food.

c. jocularly, of vermin.

d. slang.

12. A flock or herd of animals kept for pleasure. Obs. exc. in a game of swans.

13. cock of the game

14. The characteristics of a game-fowl; spirit for fighting, pluck, endurance. Also predicatively, thorough game, all game, said of a person possessed of these qualities.


15. Short for game-fowl. In quots. collect. with plural concord.

16. a. simple attrib. (chiefly in sense 11; cf. also GAME a.1), as game-beast, -bird, -country, -craft, {dag}-dog (cf. dog of game in sense 9), -drive, -land, -larder, -list, -park, -path, -pie, -pit, -pouch, -preserve, reserve, -season, -shot.

b. objective, as (senses 3 and 4) game-playing n. and adj.; game-shy adj.; (senses 10, 11) {dag}game-finder, -hunting, -preserver, -preserving, -shooting, -stealer; game-destroying adj.; (sense 11) game-dealer, -finding n. and adj.; game-proof adj.
c. attrib. and Comb. uses of the plural, esp. in sense 4e, as games-mad adj., games-mania, -master, -mistress, -room, -worship.

17. Special comb.: game-act, an Act of Parliament regulating the killing of game; game-bag, a bag for holding the game killed by a sportsman; game ball (Tennis)


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: An¡mus on June 07, 2008, 03:02:54 PM

How about the definitions of platform and place?


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Fox Phlox on June 07, 2008, 08:00:47 PM
<Wonders if Animus meant to add a  :P to that last post.>

OK - here goes. The OED defines platform as:

I. A surface or area on which something may stand, esp. a raised level surface.

1. a. An open walk or terrace, running along the top of a building or a wall. Obs.
b. Gunnery. A level area, originally on a rampart, constructed for mounting artillery. Now also: a vehicle, esp. an aeroplane

2. a. A raised level surface on which people or things can stand, usually a discrete structure intended for a particular activity or operation.
 b. spec. The horizontal base of a vehicle resting on wheels, as the bed of a railway carriage, trailer, etc.; an open portion of the floor at the end of a bus or a railway carriage.
c. A raised area running along the side of a railway track at a station, allowing passengers to get on and off trains easily.
d. A base for marine oil or gas drilling, raised on piles above the level of the sea; an offshore oil rig.
e. A high rigid diving board, usually fixed at one of several standard heights between 3 and 10 metres above the surface of the water; (also) the highboard event in a diving competition.

3. fig.
a. The ground, foundation, or basis of an action, event, calculation, condition, etc. Now also: a position achieved or situation brought about which forms the basis for further achievement.
b. A level of thought, morality, etc. Obs.
c. equal dividend platform: (in the Free and United Free Churches of Scotland) the position achieved by churches that draw an equal dividend from the sustentation fund (SUSTENTATION n. 8), as opposed to new or mission churches.

4. The area of ground occupied by a structure; the site of a group of buildings, camp, fort, etc. Obs.

5. Naut.
a. A division of the orlop deck of a man-of-war, between the cockpit and the mainmast
b. A light deck in a small boat or yacht; the cabin floor in such a vessel.

6. a. A natural or artificial terrace, a flat elevated piece of ground; a tableland, a plateau; (Physical Geogr.) a level or nearly level strip of land at the base of a cliff close to the water level; (occas.) a similar terrace elsewhere thought to have been originally formed by the sea.
b. Physical Geogr. More fully continental platform. A part of the earth's crust above the level of the ocean basins, comprising the continents and the continental shelves. Also occas.: a continental shelf.
c. Physical Geogr. A former erosion surface or plateau represented by the common surface or summit level of neighbouring hills or other land forms.
d. Geol. A part of a craton where the basement complex, elsewhere exposed as a shield, is overlain by a layer of more recent, relatively flat and undisturbed strata of a mainly sedimentary nature.

7. a. A usually temporary piece of raised flooring at one end of a hall or large space, on which a public speaker stands to address his or her audience, and on which the leaders of a meeting sit; (in extended use) a publication, broadcast, or other means by which a person can publicly express views and opinions. Also: (by metonymy) those who sit on a public stage at meetings and conferences; (hence) the body of people who hold important positions in a society, political party, etc.
 b. fig. (orig. U.S.). A basis on which people unitedly take their stand and make a public appeal; (hence) the major policy or set of policies on which a political party (or later also an individual politician) proposes to stand, as declared in electoral manifestos, conventions, etc.; spec. the policy or policies agreed by the representatives of a party assembled in convention to nominate candidates for an election. Also used of public declarations of principles, beliefs, etc., in non-political contexts.

8. Short for platform shoe

9. Aeronaut., etc. A gyroscopically stabilized mounting which is isolated from the angular motion of the craft carrying it and provides an inertial frame for the accelerometers of an inertial guidance system; (also occas.) the gyroscopes, accelerometers, and other instruments associated with this.

10. In a computer game: one of a number of solid surfaces between which characters jump or climb to progress; usu. attrib., esp. in platform game.

11. Computing. A standard system architecture; a (type of) machine and/or operating system, regarded as the base on which software applications are run.

II. A plane surface or representation.

12. A drawing, sketch, or diagram (of a structure); a plan for building; a chart, a map; = PLAN n. 2a. Obs.
 
13. Geom. A plane or two-dimensional figure; (also) a plane surface, a plane; (more generally) any surface. Obs.

III. A plan, a strategy.

14. a. A plan of action; a scheme or strategy devised to achieve concrete results; = PLAN n. 2a. Obs.
b. A plan for church government and discipline; a system of principles or doctrines, advocated by or on behalf of a religious group or society. Obs.
c. A plan or scheme of government or administration; a plan of political action. Obs.
 
15. a. A design, a concept, an idea; (something serving as) a pattern or model. Obs.
b. A written outline or sketch; a description, a synopsis. Obs.


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Fox Phlox on June 07, 2008, 08:04:52 PM
The noun 'place' has 19 main meanings - and many sub-meanings.

These can remain mysterious to prevent readers of this thread from dying of boredom ('Too late!' I hear you say from beyond the grave.)


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 07, 2008, 08:08:38 PM
sorry Fox, but my nephew has the attention span of a gnat, that just isn't a suitble argument;

how about why Second Life 'isnt' a game, using those defintions?


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Decimus Schomer on June 07, 2008, 08:44:37 PM
how about why Second Life 'isnt' a game
Err... What's been said before? Namely that it doesn't have any form of objective, except for ones that you set yourself (one point about that: what about games that have level creators, etc. which allow you to set up your own objectives? You'll have to work around that one. Maybe you could say that that's separate from the game)
Or something like that :P


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Kathy Schomer on June 07, 2008, 08:56:18 PM
In most cases it is; you have to start a separate program to use it.


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Decimus Schomer on June 07, 2008, 09:00:07 PM
In most cases it is; you have to start a separate program to use it.
True. But some aren't, though I'd still consider them separate from the main game, in terms of functionality if not what program it is...


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Fox Phlox on June 08, 2008, 08:45:31 AM
that just isn't a suitble argument;

 lol


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 08, 2008, 11:21:31 AM
Well, I can't quote the mega-postings above, can I? I've got to have the mental form of strike...or smackdown, or whatever it's called......a stroke?

hmmm....


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Marsbar9 Schomer on June 08, 2008, 11:26:32 AM
Perhaps you should just get him to try it out?


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Kathy Schomer on June 08, 2008, 11:27:24 AM
There are plenty of people in Second Life who call it a game, so that doesn't help. :P


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Marsbar9 Schomer on June 08, 2008, 12:00:45 PM
In fact I'm pretty sure the TSL site mentions "playing Second Life" - so that wouldn't help either lol


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Kathy Schomer on June 08, 2008, 12:19:49 PM
No. Linden Lab is very explicit about not using that word. There is no reference to "playing second life" - although there are plenty to playing music, videos, etc. and plenty of comments from residents on the blog that use the term.


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Marsbar9 Schomer on June 08, 2008, 12:37:01 PM
No I'm sure it said that - let me check :P


EDIT:  
Teen Second Life is an international gathering place for teens 13-17 to make friends and to play, learn and create.
- but I'm sure it said it somewhere else as well.


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 08, 2008, 12:42:08 PM
Mars, my nephew works the whole day; 12 hours lifting and packing, 12 hours playing Poker :P



Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: An¡mus on June 08, 2008, 12:42:59 PM

That's not a refference to playing second life, it's a refference to playing in second life


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Marsbar9 Schomer on June 08, 2008, 12:44:46 PM
Mars, my nephew works the whole day; 12 hours lifting and packing, 12 hours playing Poker :P

No chance of getting him in it then ;)


That's not a refference to playing second life, it's a refference to playing in second life
Yes, but playing still creates the "illusion" of a game :P


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: An¡mus on June 08, 2008, 12:47:46 PM

yes, a game within second life which is.. well a platform, even though OED defines platform (well the only close meaning) as a platform within a game blah blah etc


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Fox Phlox on June 08, 2008, 07:44:22 PM
The notes for parents on Teen Second Life say

"Does It Cost Anything to Play Teen Second Life?
A single Basic account is completely FREE, and includes access to events, shopping, building, scripting - everything you can do in Teen Second Life. The free Basic account is good for a lifetime of play. Start your teen with a free account today! "

http://teen.secondlife.com/parents


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 08, 2008, 08:23:29 PM
I had a chance to talk face-to-face with my nephew today, sadly, he was drunk and had blood pooling everywhere from a broken nose. This bides us time in forming the check-mate :p


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Kathy Schomer on June 08, 2008, 09:41:54 PM
That doesn't count. You have to use simplified language for parents - it's a well known fact. :P


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 09, 2008, 10:39:11 AM
That I agree with! I had to teach my folks how to use an iPod (even though i've never used them myself)

Me: Right, if I reprogram the genetic algo to try and create a rudimentary digestive track, then the food creation system may be more successful...

Father: O.o

Mother: Forget that, I want to play Bingo!


Me: >.>


and lets not forget that golden oldie;

Mother: I've been working with computers years before you were born! I know how to operate them!

Me: Really? right, shall I explain the maths behind a neural network, or should I go and get you a card puncher? (Historical fact: Card punchers were effectively the first widely used computers)




Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Kathy Schomer on June 09, 2008, 11:55:06 AM
I am left wondering why you would need a digestive tract to make food.


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 09, 2008, 03:45:17 PM
two separate things, Kathy.

Not much point creating a rule-based ecosystem of food producing 'plants' if you dont have something to eat them with, no?


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: An¡mus on June 09, 2008, 04:23:11 PM

Not sure I made sense of that, why do the plants need to eat their own food?

And what was the second thing? ???


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 11, 2008, 02:47:37 PM
the plant (the plant is the food creator)
and the creature (with a digestive tract)

two sep. things.



Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: An¡mus on June 11, 2008, 02:57:59 PM

Ah, ok. I was under the impression you were going to tell us two seperate reasons rather than there being two seperate things


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 11, 2008, 02:59:18 PM
Animus, can you recall the last time I made myself crystal clear?

No, me neither!  ::)


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: An¡mus on June 11, 2008, 03:20:29 PM

I blame the language to be honest ;)


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Topper Schomer on June 11, 2008, 03:22:39 PM
Animus, can you recall the last time I made myself crystal clear?

No, me neither!  ::)

I can t'was not long ago as well  :P

Topper


Title: Re: The definition of Second Life
Post by: Doctor Schomer on June 12, 2008, 01:53:49 PM
Topper?

*slap*


*is trying to think of something cryptic to say, and fails*